| Author |
Message |
stay9
Guest
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 Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re: To Refco Capital Markets customers. |
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Enrico wrote:
| Quote: | john_zigel wrote:
Dear Refco Capital Markets' customers,
My company is among RCM's customers.
We are very worried since RCM has been freezing our accounts for
fifteen days; but we fear that we will never have our money back, also
because of the worsening news we got from the press.
We would like to constitute a coalition among all of the customers
Refco Capital Markets froze the accounts of.
I am unfortunately in the same position and I would strongly like to
be in touch with other Refco Capital Markets customers to share
information
and to set up common actions against them.
I can be reached at arcan@quipo.it |
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stay9
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re: To Refco Capital Markets customers. |
|
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Enrico wrote:
| Quote: | john_zigel wrote:
Dear Refco Capital Markets' customers,
My company is among RCM's customers.
We are very worried since RCM has been freezing our accounts for
fifteen days; but we fear that we will never have our money back, also
because of the worsening news we got from the press.
We would like to constitute a coalition among all of the customers
Refco Capital Markets froze the accounts of.
I am unfortunately in the same position and I would strongly like to
be in touch with other Refco Capital Markets customers to share
information
and to set up common actions against them.
I can be reached at arcan@quipo.it |
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| Back to top |
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stay9
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re: To Refco Capital Markets customers. |
|
|
Enrico wrote:
| Quote: | john_zigel wrote:
Dear Refco Capital Markets' customers,
My company is among RCM's customers.
We are very worried since RCM has been freezing our accounts for
fifteen days; but we fear that we will never have our money back, also
because of the worsening news we got from the press.
We would like to constitute a coalition among all of the customers
Refco Capital Markets froze the accounts of.
I am unfortunately in the same position and I would strongly like to
be in touch with other Refco Capital Markets customers to share
information
and to set up common actions against them.
I can be reached at arcan@quipo.it |
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| Back to top |
|
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stay9
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re: To Refco Capital Markets customers. |
|
|
Enrico wrote:
| Quote: | john_zigel wrote:
Dear Refco Capital Markets' customers,
My company is among RCM's customers.
We are very worried since RCM has been freezing our accounts for
fifteen days; but we fear that we will never have our money back, also
because of the worsening news we got from the press.
We would like to constitute a coalition among all of the customers
Refco Capital Markets froze the accounts of.
I am unfortunately in the same position and I would strongly like to
be in touch with other Refco Capital Markets customers to share
information
and to set up common actions against them.
I can be reached at arcan@quipo.it |
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| Back to top |
|
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Jack
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re: For customers whom Refco Capital Markets..... |
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|
Your statement that "They are only as safe
| Quote: | as the broker is financially sound" is only correct should the broker
choose to commit fraud. Customer funds are to be kept segregated from the |
firm's capital. It is a federal crime to comingle customer seg funds and
firm capital. This is precisely the argument that Jim Rogers is using in
his lawsuit v. Refco. You are correct that no obligation exists as to the
obligation of the exchanges.
Regards, Jack.
"News" <news@charter.net> wrote in message
news:eJJaf.9120$7s1.1465@fe04.lga...
| Quote: |
"Jack" <jzaner@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:v42dnY-iA88SkvbeRVn-sQ@adelphia.com...
The protection of customer funds has nothing to do with Member or
non-Member
but rather whether the funds qualify as segregated. Seg funds may not
be
comingled with those of the brokerage company and must be kept separate.
Seg funds, however, are subject to losses due to other customers during
periods when liquidation of positions has been impeded. Remember, Refco
Capital Markets has declared bankruptcy- - not the regulated Refco, LLC.
Regards, Jack.
The discussion was about whether the Exchanges offered any
protection to customers. The answer is they have no obligation to
assume the liability of their member firms. Now to the point that
you have raised. Yes, customer funds held by CFTC registered
and NFA member firms are "supposed" to be held in a segregated
account until a trade is open. But the problem is the same as it
was in securities before SIPC, when a firm is facing financial
problems and probably will file bankruptcy the funds are not
there on liquidation. It is a false statement to imply that customer
funds held by a futures broker is "safe". They are only as safe
as the broker is financially sound. The funds are held by the
broker and not the Exchange clearing house. Funds are only
deposited by the broker with the clearing house to offset any
imbalance on open trades.
"News" <news@charter.net> wrote in message
news:_Wwaf.22$Cw4.15@fe03.lga...
"Enrico" <arcan@quipo.it> wrote in message
news:1131048542.437492.303730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anyway, If you are simply trading account clients, you are protected
by
exchange security, no point panic.
It seems that things are not like that.
Refco Capital Markets is unregulated, unsecured and subject
to Bermuda law, as far as I know.
Moreover Refco says that they can do what they want with
our accounts since "they own our money" ) although I find
that simply incredible. I thought that the judge would have
faced this fundamental point before the Nov 09 public auction,
but he didn't...I'd like to know if our accounts are really frozen
and controlled by some public authority, or if RFC can
liquidate the positions and make them disappear.
Nevertheless, seeing the REFCO bond pricing around
75% somewhat reassures me, since I think that this bond
represent the value of the whole company not
only the future division.
Some people have the belief that funds on deposit with
a futures broker is protected by some type of insurance
or security such as SIPC. Nothing could be farther from
the truth. The Exchanges probably would not let customers
of a member lose funds on deposit with a member firm due
to the damage it would do to the industry. But they are not
obligated to assume the liability of customer funds. They
have no obligation to non-member FCMs.
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Enrico
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:42 am Post subject:
Re: For customers whom Refco Capital Markets..... |
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Let me understand...
Since the RCM accounts are not segregated, we could lose everything
and noone would pay for that? |
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Enrico
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:42 am Post subject:
Re: For customers whom Refco Capital Markets..... |
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Let me understand...
Since the RCM accounts are not segregated, we could lose everything
and noone would pay for that? |
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| Back to top |
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News
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:
Re: For customers whom Refco Capital Markets..... |
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"Jack" <jzaner@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:WpGdnRGPlOPEEPbeRVn-tw@adelphia.com...
| Quote: | Your statement that "They are only as safe
as the broker is financially sound" is only correct should the broker
choose to commit fraud. Customer funds are to be kept segregated from the
firm's capital. It is a federal crime to comingle customer seg funds and
firm capital. This is precisely the argument that Jim Rogers is using in
his lawsuit v. Refco. You are correct that no obligation exists as to the
obligation of the exchanges.
Regards, Jack.
That is my point. If a broker is in financial trouble and facing bankruptcy, |
then fraud may be committed. Yes, according to federal law, customer
segregated funds can not be commingled with the firm's capital. But that
is not always the case. If the money is not there, then the trader has no
recourse except to sue and try to recover something. Someone may
face criminal charges but that does not replace the lost funds. One
must remember that once an open position in a futures contract
has been established, the funds required for margin are no longer
segregated. They are held by the broker unless there is an imbalance
with the clearing house. Then the margin funds are deposited there,
usually in the form of some type of interest bearing instrument with
the interest going to the brokerage firm. Most traders does not
leave funds on deposit without trading and having an open position.
These free funds, which are normally earning interest for the
brokerage, are the money at risk unless they are on deposit with
the Exchange clearing house.
| Quote: |
"Jack" <jzaner@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:v42dnY-iA88SkvbeRVn-sQ@adelphia.com...
The protection of customer funds has nothing to do with Member or
non-Member
but rather whether the funds qualify as segregated. Seg funds may not
be
comingled with those of the brokerage company and must be kept
separate.
Seg funds, however, are subject to losses due to other customers during
periods when liquidation of positions has been impeded. Remember,
Refco
Capital Markets has declared bankruptcy- - not the regulated Refco,
LLC.
Regards, Jack.
The discussion was about whether the Exchanges offered any
protection to customers. The answer is they have no obligation to
assume the liability of their member firms. Now to the point that
you have raised. Yes, customer funds held by CFTC registered
and NFA member firms are "supposed" to be held in a segregated
account until a trade is open. But the problem is the same as it
was in securities before SIPC, when a firm is facing financial
problems and probably will file bankruptcy the funds are not
there on liquidation. It is a false statement to imply that customer
funds held by a futures broker is "safe". They are only as safe
as the broker is financially sound. The funds are held by the
broker and not the Exchange clearing house. Funds are only
deposited by the broker with the clearing house to offset any
imbalance on open trades.
"News" <news@charter.net> wrote in message
news:_Wwaf.22$Cw4.15@fe03.lga...
"Enrico" <arcan@quipo.it> wrote in message
news:1131048542.437492.303730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anyway, If you are simply trading account clients, you are
protected
by
exchange security, no point panic.
It seems that things are not like that.
Refco Capital Markets is unregulated, unsecured and subject
to Bermuda law, as far as I know.
Moreover Refco says that they can do what they want with
our accounts since "they own our money" ) although I find
that simply incredible. I thought that the judge would have
faced this fundamental point before the Nov 09 public auction,
but he didn't...I'd like to know if our accounts are really frozen
and controlled by some public authority, or if RFC can
liquidate the positions and make them disappear.
Nevertheless, seeing the REFCO bond pricing around
75% somewhat reassures me, since I think that this bond
represent the value of the whole company not
only the future division.
Some people have the belief that funds on deposit with
a futures broker is protected by some type of insurance
or security such as SIPC. Nothing could be farther from
the truth. The Exchanges probably would not let customers
of a member lose funds on deposit with a member firm due
to the damage it would do to the industry. But they are not
obligated to assume the liability of customer funds. They
have no obligation to non-member FCMs.
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ynotssor
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:
Re: For customers whom Refco Capital Markets..... |
|
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"Jack" <jzaner@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:ididncwDf9nVLvbeRVn-hg@adelphia.com
| Quote: | My understanding is that those customers of RCM, whose funds are not
subject to seg fund regs, become general creditors of RCM. Let's
hope RCM draws high bids! I am not an attorney and if you need
advice you should consult one.
|
I don't know what led to these feelings, but I've always avoided RefCo in
any way, shape or form for the past 2 decades. Maybe something to do with
the Hunt Bros. silver runup circa 1980, or something that I read somewhere,
I don't know.
At any rate, I'm glad to be free of the debacle, and have the most sympathy
for those who are involved as RefCo clients that can't get control of their
own money. |
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Jack
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:
Re: For customers whom Refco Capital Markets..... |
|
|
My understanding is that those customers of RCM, whose funds are not subject
to seg fund regs, become general creditors of RCM. Let's hope RCM draws
high bids! I am not an attorney and if you need advice you should consult
one.
Regards, Jack.
"Enrico" <arcan@quipo.it> wrote in message
news:1131129771.141563.76700@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Let me understand...
Since the RCM accounts are not segregated, we could lose everything
and noone would pay for that?
|
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